Andy Dunkley talks to John Lombardo and Natalie Merchant from 10,000 Maniacs
It was their Christian Burial independent release My Mother The War that first brought a small proportion of the world's attention to 10,000 Maniacs. Now signed to a major label, the Maniacs' share of that attention is definitely increasing and their new album The Wishing Chair should increase that share even further. Andy Dunkley spoke to John Lombardo (music, bass and guitars) and Natalie Merchant (lyrics and vocals) and found there was a method in their madness, a sane sense of music, and a long history behind the popular Elektra six-piece.
Andy Dunkler: The first thing that comes to mind is a chicken and egg question Which comes first the words or the music?
John Lombardo: Sometimes the lyrics may have existed as a poem in a notebook and might have been adopted, but the songs are usually precipitated by a musical idea. Even the emotional content is affected by what the melody evokes. A lot of the music is influenced by songwriters, people like Gram Parsons and Richard Thompson, plus some of the older music and musicians. I'm not too influenced by anyone current at the moment. That's not to say that we just simply listen to older styles. We're still pretty aware and pretty hip to a lot of contemporary things.
AD: I find It really surprising that the lyrics are fitted to the music, Instead of vice versa. How difficult do you find this mode of writing?
Natalie Merchant: Some of the songs have confounded me for months, like Back of the Moon. I knew immediately what I wanted to write about, but I couldn't come up with the words. Sometimes it will come in a burst in one afternoon, but sometimes I can only get a line a week. I find It difficult to structure things. but I always decide the subject matter- at the start and then I start writing about It.
AD: Natalie, would you agree that you have an eye for detail?
NM: I prefer not to generalize. I prefer to conjure up particulars. I think the lyrics on the first EP were a bit too ambitious, I tried to say too much in a short period of time. In the current album much of the lyric content is a reflection upon childhood, like for instance Back Of The Moon where there is a really strong reflection, a really secure safety, but then at the end of the song I started looking at a sense of fear and adult troubles. Besides there isn't that much safety for children these days.
AD: You seem to be settled in Jamestown rather than moving into a more musically oriented scene...........
JL: We are very anxious to move actually. It's just been a question of finances so far. As much as our independent records helped us with exposure we never really saw any money so it's been a hand-to-mouth existence. I think our aspiration is to gravitate somewhere where there's a bit more musical stimulation.
AD: How would you say Jamestown has influenced the music of the Maniacs?
JL: Well I think it's given us some distance. A lot of times when you're in a particular scene not only are you influenced by other bands you're also influenced by the scene itself. You tend to see the people who hang out at the clubs you went to play at, so sometimes you tailor your approach in anticipation of what you think your audience wants. We were so isolated that when we looked to other bands it was that same feeling of distance. We knew darn well a group like the Gang of Four or the Cure weren't going to come to our town, so we would view those hands with the same sort of reverence as you might view Bob Dylan or the Band. So therefore, we were able to judge the more contemporary music in a broader light. I don't know if the atmosphere in Jamestown effects the music we are playing. I do know we are surrounded by a lot of folk and bluegrass musicians and country players. A lot of people have said to us, 'Now you're not so independent sounding. Now you're into country and folk.' But that's something that was always there. It's just something that we didn't feature very much, but it was always a fairly strong influence. We are very anxious to get out of Jamestown and travel a lot. We've spent a lot of time on the road and some bands have said they didn't understand how we could do it so much, but they're from more stimulating environments.
AD: You do actually enjoy being on the road then?
JL: Oh yes. It's really quite a challenge to pull into town where you've never been and try and win over fresh audiences every night and I think it keeps an edge on what you do.
AD: Does the new Elektra album seem to be helping you in those places?
JL: So far, not yet, because It's only been out three or four weeks. It's helped in some areas. In Ann Arbor the radio station said it's the most popular record of the moment. There seems to be more of a build-up than before. The fact that we're on a major label for the first time gives us more credibility, in the U.S. at least.
NM: Working with Elektra rather than our own label takes a lot of unwanted responsibility away. But there are bureaucracy problems. There's so many who have to approve everything from artwork to singles. We're given a lot of freedom and we're given a lot of say. It just takes more time. It used to be just the six of us and now it's the six of us and every department at Elektra. We had to pay for the lyric sheet. There was an uproar about including it. I would have been upset if that hadn't been included. A lot of the lyrics have to do with my life, though I try to disguise that by changing the perspective of the person who speaks.
AD: Could you tell us about your musical background?
JL: I never really had any training at all. I just decided that there wasn't anything I wanted to do and I was alienated by the idea of working, so I decided to pick up a bass guitar and learn how to play. I spent the whole of one summer just playing by myself. I started composing shortly thereafter. Then, in 1980, I formed a band called the Mills, a do-it-yourself sort of band, molded on the whole '77 thing. The other people in the Maniacs formed a band called Still Life. Right off the bat they started composing all their own music and I was quite excited to see a band doing nothing but their own material, even though the edges were a little raw. (Most of them had just picked up their instruments. It was their first band.) When the Mills folded, Still Life still had some barroom gigs to take care of so they asked me to play with them. That was really the beginning. That was about 1981. For the first year and a half we really didn't do too much. Robert Buck [10,000 Maniacs' talented guitarist] didn't want to join right off. He had some things he wanted to take care of, so we went through the motions for a while with a sax player, another guitar player and a synth. It wasn't very much like the band now. In fact we had to beg Natalie just to come to those gigs.
AD: How would you like to see the Maniacs music developing?
JL: I don't have any real answers to that. I like the idea that we're really focusing on songs. It creates a world within itself. I've always liked the kind of songs you might categorize as bedsit music. You know, sitting there when you're alone and being able to hide within the lyrics of certain songs that you can play for the rest of your life, and as soon as you put them on something moves inside you. I think that that's what we try to do, and I'm not saying we're always successful but the idea that a song can take you to a place and create some sort of emotional change within a person. I think that's what I'd like to do. be more successful in that vein.
NM: We don't write songs in abundance. I'd like to see us writing more songs, so that when the next deadline comes we'd have more songs to choose from. That's my only frustration right now. When we're touring it's difficult to write. And I'd like to be able to play in England more than we do in the States. Everyone says it's a band's dream to become more popular in America. I'd rather be popular in England and Europe (She laughs). We'd get to travel abroad then.
AD: You've been described as having that English folk feel. Was that from records you heard?
JL: I've been listening to that kind of music for a long, long time not just the Fairports, but the Sutherland Brothers or Lindisfarne or Steeleye Span. I always liked all of that music and now it seems to be forgotten or cast aside. For some members of the band it was a first exposure to it and there was quite an excitement there because of the fact that it was a timeless sort of music. It couldn't necessarily be defined by any style. We've never really patterned ourselves or tried to sound like anyone else because obviously, with the electronic stylized guitar Rob plays, it's inherently different, but I think the influence is there.
AD: How was it working with Joe Boyd?
JL: It was real interesting. He actually let us make a lot of the decisions that I'd have assumed that the producer would insist upon making. We'd done demos with other people that were very structured and they told us how they wanted the vocals. Things like that. But Joe was very hands-off. He would make suggestions. I think he was very good working with Natalie [she agreed] particularly. He gave her someone to bounce her lyrics off, someone who was very intelligent and whose opinions she respected a great deal. Joe was one of the first people to express an interest in working with us. Frank Riley, our booking agent, shared an office with Hannibal Records in New York, so Joe heard us very early on. He was someone that we always liked and we knew that he liked the band. Realizing that he was rich in tradition, we were really glad he showed an interest.
AD: You've been quoted as saying that the Smiths and the Cocteau Twins were your favorite groups. Has this changed? Have there been any additions?
NM: When John Wilder asked me that, those were the only ones I currently knew of. I don't know of many more. The Pogues maybe, but I don't listen to much contemporary music. I can't afford to and when I'm on the road there's no way to listen to it. When I'm at home I listen to more timeless music; I like folk music, blues, bluegrass. I really feel ignorant because I don't contribute to the growth of other bands and I expect people to contribute to our growth. I feel that I should buy albums to make financial contributions to other bands to keep the music growing.
AD: Natalie your stage performance seems to be divided between intense vocal passages which are strongly directed towards the audience and then there are those instrumental passages when you are dancing. Are those dance movement planned or do you improvise a lot, and what goes through your mind as you dance?
NM: There's a bit of repetition because there are certain ways that I move, I think everybody does. There are only certain set patterns that are accomplishable by most people. But I don't do the same routines for every song so I would have to say it's mostly spontaneity. When I'm singing I'm thinking of the words obviously and the images that go with the words. When I was in the studio there were points when I wouldn't see the images. I would just see letters and that was really disturbing, but it seems I've gotten over that. It was because I had to type them all out for the lyric sheet. When I'm not singing I think of the songs and then sometimes nothing. That's what I prefer! Not really thinking whilst I dance, just moving.
AD: Much of your material has a political content, be it socio-political, or political with a capital 'P'. For instance, My Mother The War. Would you say that that bias has any effect on the areas you're attempting to cover?
NM: Of course. I don't think my songs are speaking for the whole band because our political views are so different, though we all have one common belief that there's evil in the world, and if you think there's evil you shouldn't be frightened to comment about it. The more I learn the more my views change. I'm only 21 years old so before I make a strong stance I'd like to be educated instead of misinforming people.
AD: Your music seems to have a feel for the American traditions rather than America as it is now. Is this a fair judgment?
JL: I suppose so. I think all of us are nostalgic for an America that maybe never existed maybe exists in the fond memory of people, but we see a world now that none of us are too fond of. We somehow feel that the spirit of the music has been violated. We're very depressed with the exploitation side of most things. I think it's a longing for a saner way of life. There are certain issues and certain questions that are much larger than the decision makers of the moment.